S5E9: Tanya Birl-Torres
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with director, choreographer, producer, and creator Tanya Birl-Torres about tripping and falling into a theatrical career, drawing inspiration from chosen ancestors, daring to stay in the center of yourself, increasing visibility of parenting in theatre, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Tanya Birl-Torres
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
The Shed - Join Tanya for the July 19 activation, Glitter in the Dust: Exploring the Work Song Tradition
Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil
Trailblazers of the Week:
Alex Elle - Insight Timer meditations
Katie Spelman - The Agnes Index
Guest Bio:
Tanya Birl-Torres (she/her) is a multi-faceted artist and proud partner and mother of two. Select collaborations include: the World Premiere of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil (Goodman Theater), How I Learned What I Learned (OSF), Peter and the Starcatcher (OSF), Twelfth Night (The Public Theater), The Red Letter Plays (The Signature Theater), As You Like It (The Guthrie Theater), 2024 Critical Breaks artist in residence, 2023 MAP fund and NoMAA grantee for her original choreo-play, A Play in three Movements. Tanya is a 2023 CitizensNYC NewYorker4NY honoree featured as “Women breaking glass ceilings & exercising their voice in NYC & beyond”. Tanya currently serves as the Social Practice Artist in Residence at The Shed Performing Arts Center in New York City for her new work, The Zora Project, where she is directing, choreographing, and envisioning a cosmic theatrical offering to the legacy of Zora Neale Hurston.
Find Tanya Online:
Follow The Zora Project on Instagram
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, hello.
Amy: Hi! How are you?
Hayley: Honestly, I'm sick, but I'm happy to be here.
Amy: Bummer. I'm sorry you're sick. Thank you for being here. Hayley, do you want to tell us your Rose and your Thorn for this week?
Hayley: Well, I think my Thorn is fairly obvious. I am under the weather, and I'm traveling right now, listeners. I'm actually in Vancouver visiting my spouse's family and doing our annual Vancouver tour. This is actually where I went to school. So it's like a fun, nostalgic place for me. So being under the weather and being in Vancouver, and as a combo, not my fave. But I'm trekking along. Sometimes your body is just doing its best.
My Rose for this week is that I'm getting to spend some really awesome time with family and friends. Devon's grandpa Ralph is, like, one of my favorite people on the planet, and I'm really, really lucky to get to know him. He's a historian and a really passionate guy and loves to, like, share his wisdom and get into deep conversations. And he has a beautiful home out in Belcarra, which is one of the most beautiful places in the world. And so I feel very lucky to, like, spend time with family who I love, out in a very beautiful place.
And reconnect with friends who I don't normally get to see all the time. I just spent the weekend on Vancouver Island… One of my best friends, Mariya, I got to see her star as Rusty in Footloose at Chemainus Theatre Festival. And she's just such a star, I'm so proud of her. And, you know, just one of my favorite people. I left feeling really inspired, too. We, like, talked shop, and I left with a bunch of ideas for concepts of productions that I'd like to direct one day. And it was just a really inspiring and fun trip. How about you, Amy? Roses and Thorns.
Amy: Amazing. Love all of that for you, except the sickness. Don't love that so much.
My Thorn today is limits. I feel like I'm in this moment in my life where I want to do all the things, and I can't do all the things, at least not all at once. And coming to terms with that for myself is hard and is, like, a lifelong journey for me as a person who very much wants to do all the things. So that's my Thorn.
My Rose is that tonight, I am going to auditions for my musical To the Lighthouse. We're doing this exciting developmental reading as part of the American Musical and Dramatic Academy SummerFest. And yeah, so tonight my collaborator, Julie, is coming to town. I can't wait to see her face. And we're gonna go listen to students sing our stuff and audition to be in our show. And I'm so excited to go into this process, to get the show on its feet with people, and to work on it, to make it better. To work with a fantastic creative team, including my amazing spouse, Keith. And it's, yeah, it's gonna be a really fun July, and I'm excited to dive into it.
So speaking of things I'm excited to dive into, today we are talking to the fabulous Tanya Birl-Torres. Tanya is a director, choreographer, creator. She is a multi-headed lady in theatre. She's also my workout buddy and local mom friend, which is super exciting. And I'm really excited to chat with her about her process and her world and projects she's working on. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
Hayley: Yeah. And she's a part of the Zora project? We were talking about Zora Neale Hurston earlier on this season as part of our partnership with Expand the Canon, and I'm really excited to dive into the Zora Project and hear more about that.
Amy: Yes. Yes, Tanya, like, the work that she does is so cool. It's so community-centric and so creative and spiritual, and she's such a good human. I'm so excited to chat with her. So shall we get into it?
Hayley: Let's do it.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Tanya Birl-Torres is a multi-faceted artist and proud partner and mother of two. Select collaborations include: the World Premiere of Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil (Goodman Theater), How I Learned What I Learned (OSF), Peter and the Starcatcher (OSF), Twelfth Night (The Public Theater), The Red Letter Plays (The Signature Theater), As You Like It (The Guthrie Theater), 2024 Critical Breaks artist in residence, 2023 MAP fund and NoMAA grantee for her original choreo-play, A Play in Three Movements. Tanya is a 2023 CitizensNYC NewYorker4NY honoree featured as “Women breaking glass ceilings & exercising their voice in NYC & beyond”. Tanya currently serves as the Social Practice Artist in Residence at The Shed Performing Arts Center in New York City for her new work, The Zora Project, where she is directing, choreographing, and envisioning a cosmic theatrical offering to the legacy of Zora Neale Hurston. You can follow her on social media @sohumanity.
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people! Tanya, welcome to Women & Theatre.
Tanya: Thank you for having me.
Hayley: Tanya, can you share your pronouns and tell us a little bit about what hats you wear in the theatrical spaces that you're in?
Tanya: So my pronouns are she/her, and, uh, lots of hats! Choreographer, movement director, director, producer, creator. I am a little reticent to say writer, I feel like that's always the scariest one to say. But I feel like I speak the words and thoughts to my writing partner, who puts them on paper, so I feel like I midwife through my words and he doulas on the page.
Hayley: That's a beautiful metaphor. I love that.
Amy: That’s beautiful, yes!
Tanya: Says the mom.
Amy: Yes, birth imagery.
Tanya: Yeah, it's the birth imagery. Yeah.
Hayley: Also, I will say, I think writing comes in a lot of different forms, and you can own that.
Tanya: Right? As soon as I think of actually writing on a page or typing on a computer, I get intimidated. But if I think about creating worlds and envisioning them and making them a reality, that’s writing too. And I do that.
Hayley: Totally. Yes, I think so.
Amy: It is, yeah! Amazing. Tanya, what's something that's inspiring you right now?
Tanya: Oh my goodness. Okay. So always, I bring into the space and have to say her name. So Zora Neale Hurston is my ancestor of choice, chosen ancestor and always forever muse and inspiration. So she will come up, I'm sure, a lot in this conversation. Um, and then what else always inspires me is nature, is Fort Tryon Park, is being outside.
Hayley: I love that. I'm so excited to talk more about Zora Neale Hurston in this interview. Earlier this season we did a partnership with Expand the Cannon for Women's History Month, and Zora Neale Hurston was one of the playwrights that we spotlighted as a part of that partnership. So beautiful symmetry…
Tanya: Amazing.
Amy: Meant to be.
Hayley: I do have a question. You said “chosen ancestor,” and I just wanted to know more about what you mean by that.
Tanya: Yeah. So I've always wanted to understand what it meant when people would say, like, they spoke to their ancestors or they had a practice with their ancestors or… Because I grew up in Canada, like you, Hayley, and my blood relatives are from the South in America, from Alabama, just like Zora, and from Jamaica. And so I didn't grow up around a lot of my blood relatives. And so even if I knew people who had passed away, I was like, I couldn't find that connection as if I was, like, close, really, really close.
And so I say chosen ancestor because Zora is the first person, human being, now spirit on the other side, who I do feel a direct connection, portal, to. Who I don't think I'm blood-related to, but it'd be cool and wouldn't surprise me if we actually were blood-related in some way.
So, yeah, that she's my chosen one and I… She speaks and I hear her.
Hayley: Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. That’s really cool, yeah
Amy: That's so good. Yeah, like chosen family, found family, but the found ancestors. That's wonderful. What a cool concept.
Hayley: Fabulous. So before we get into the interview proper, we like to do a fun little flash round of questions. This is, like, a “don't think, just speak” kind of thing. It's very fun, you know.
Tanya: Great!
Hayley: So the first one is: If you were an animal, what would you be and why?
Tanya: Okay. Ooh. I always go deep with everything, 'cause my kids tell me what I am, so I'm gonna, my kids say I'm a lion and I'm also a Leo, so that makes sense.
Hayley: Love.
Tanya: Um, so I'm gonna go with lion. And why? Ooh. Um, yeah, I'm pretty fierce with how I am in the world. I'm small, like I'm short and petite, but have a very loud mouth and big energy.
Amy: Amazing.
Tanya: My roar, my roar is… I can roar and I can purr, but the roar is pretty loud. Yeah.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: That’s good. Tanya, what's your weirdest hobby?
Tanya: I always get stumped on this, 'cause I wish I had a cool, weird hobby, but I don't feel like…
Amy: Theatre people are like, “Hobbies? What are hobbies?”
Tanya: I know! I’m like, I don't have… Like, who has time for hobbies? I've been dancing since I was like, whatever. I don't know. Unless a hobby is like having cannabis at the park. I mean, that's my favorite hobby.
Hayley: Ooh, okay!
Amy: It's a good hobby. Love it.
Hayley: This is a green-friendly podcast, so I love, sounds good to me.
Tanya: That's my hobby of choice these days, you know.
Amy: That's great.
Hayley: Fun. Tanya, do you have a quote or a mantra that's speaking to you in this moment?
Tanya: Oh yeah. So I have a bunch written on my mirror, and the one that I am living into - 'cause I feel like I have to get comfortable with them - but the one I'm living into right now is: “Teach what you need and give what you want.”
Hayley: That's awesome.
Amy: Hmmm.
Tanya: Teach what you need and give what you want.
Hayley: I’m gonna sit with that one.
Amy: Yeah, I've gotta unpack that.
Tanya: Yeah. It takes some conversation to unpack that one, because it is a little, like, ?? Yeah. I think it also is a little bit of, like, an anti-capitalist mantra, because it's also undoing that, that concept - especially I find as a woman, particularly, in the world - of that I need to be an absolute expert at everything. Like, on paper and in terms of - like, in all these different ways that aren't intuitive in order for me to teach, or in order for me to mentor or guide. And it's like - a lot of my work right now is around understanding and decolonizing my mind and understanding African ways of thinking and being. And for me, that's the “Teach what you need”, is like, really feel into what you need and then that's what you bring to the spaces. Yeah.
Amy: Cool. Tanya, what's your favorite musical?
Tanya: Hmmm. To see? To do?
Amy: Yes.
Tanya: To be in?
Amy: Yes. All of it.
Hayley: All of the above!
Tanya: Okay, so I'll just go - What came to mind first was Once…
Amy: Oh yeah!
Tanya: …just because when I saw Once, I was a mess, I was a mess. I always say I tripped and fell into musical theatre, I never did it as a kid. Me and my husband both tripped and fell into it and met and got married. So it's like, when I saw Once, that really undid me, and it was the first cast album that I would listen to outside of going to the show. Another one more recent probably would be Hadestown. So it's like the same kind of vibe. Yeah, and then to do… Um, The Wiz.
Hayley: Good one.
Amy: Love it.
Hayley: Cool. Tanya, what is your song of the moment?
Tanya: Oh, this is good. I am really into Teyana Taylor's “We Got Love.” I love songs about love, so I love “We Got Love.” And I really - I just saw her in concert last week at Little Island, Meshell Ndegeocello’s new album, um, which is The Gospel of James Baldwin and her song “Love” as well. Two love songs.
Amy: Yay.
Hayley: Love that. Well, thanks for playing along with our flash round.
Tanya: That's fun!
Amy: We did it!
(Musical transition)
Hayley: So I'm curious, you said you tripped and fell into musical theatre. So tell us the story. How did you come to the creative work that you do and to musical theatre specifically?
Tanya: Yeah. So I grew up outside of Toronto, in the GTA, in Mississauga. And I started dancing, like, “late” for kids dancing, like 10, you know, years old. And, um, was really into, like, competitive dance and jazz and tap and acrobatics and also did ballet and all of that. And then I went to Cawthra Park [School] and then got into more of the modern dance scene. And even though Cawthra had a theatre program and they had shows, never did one. Never did one musical theatre show. I was very on the, like, contemporary dance - either… Well, two things. Either - like, it was gonna be Alvin Ailey or Justin Timberlake's backup dancer, like, there was nothing in between. Or Janet Jackson, you know what I mean?
Hayley: I love that. The two ends of the spectrum.
Tanya: Those were the two, and nothing else existed. But I also grew up singing in church, and my mom is a singer, my sister's a singer. And, you know, music was always in the house. My dad is a phlebotomist - he's retired now, but would draw blood, worked in hospitals - but was obsessed with movie musicals. And so I always grew up watching West Side Story and The Sound of Music and, like, musicals were just always in our house, but it wasn't something that I actually did. And it wasn't in my mind to do that as a career.
So I moved to LA out of high school. So my dad is American, he's from Alabama. And so I had, I got natural citizenship right away. And so I did think, “Okay, I have a free ticket to the States.” So instead of going to college, I was like, I just wanna dance. I'm gonna move to LA and be a backup dancer. But I joined a cruise ship. I had won a scholarship and got this job on this cruise ship, and then afterwards made enough money to go to the Ailey school, to the certificate program in New York.
And so I came to New York after that. I was at the Ailey School, was dancing. I had previously auditioned for Lion King in Toronto. That's what modern dancers do. Like, if you're gonna do any kind of musical as a modern dancer, it would be The Lion King, right? My little brother, who's 10 years younger, was at the audition with me. I was probably 17, he was seven. He was flipping around, he was a little gymnast, did all these things. He ends up booking Little Simba. I don't get the job. He gets the job, is Little Simba in the Toronto company and closes the entire run. Gets his Equity card before me.
And then, so I'm in New York and I'm at the Ailey school and my mom called me one day, I'm in ballet class, and was like, “Binder casting is looking for you.” Like, called my mom's house in Toronto. And I was like, okay. She was like, “The Lion King wants to know, like, what you're doing or where you are or whatever. And I was like, “Oh, I'm in New York.” Anyway, long story short, they call and they're like, “We have two openings on the First National Tour, and we'll call you in a week to let you know if it's you or not.” And I was like, “What?? And they called and were like, “Can you be on tour next week?” And I went from a student at Ailey, like McDonald's #2 menu… I always say I was living off peanut butter and jelly and McDonald's #2, living in Canarsie, Brooklyn, to a First National Broadway Tour.
Hayley/Amy: Wow.
Tanya: That's how I tripped and fell.
Hayley: I love that story.
Amy: You really tripped and fell!
Hayley: Yeah!
Tanya: I really tripped and fell into Broadway. And I have to say, like, there's some things in between that are… Like, what's wild is I was auditioning constantly in Toronto. I could not get a callback in Toronto. I could not get a job in Toronto. It really was this weird kismet thing where it was like… Yeah, Broadway just was the thing that was like, “Wanna come over here?”
Hayley: Wow. That's amazing. You know it's serious when the casting office calls your mama's house, you know?
Amy: Your mom's like, “Jay Binder is looking for you.”
Hayley: So funny!
Tanya: Yeah, Jay Binder is literally looking for you.
Hayley: I'm obsessed.
Tanya: Like, where is she? Uh-huh.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Oh my gosh. Amazing. Well, Tanya, tell us about what you're working on now. Tell us about what you're working on creatively right now, 'cause I know there's a lot of really cool things.
Tanya: Yeah. So the major, major is a project called the Zora Project that I've started. I'm doing a year-long residency at The Shed. So I'm the Social Practice Artist in Residence. And really, the definition of social practice is just that relationships and community is the center of the work. And so developing an original, or we're calling “cosmic theatrical offering,” in honor of Zora with two other partners of mine: Reza Salazar, who is working on the book, and Justin Hicks, who is collaborating on the music.
And while we're doing that and in residency doing that, we're opening up our process to the public. “Gathering the folk,” as Zora would say. We've done two activations - we're calling them activations: One around folklore and folktales, which is helping shape the book. One around the Fire Dance, which is West African and Hoodoo and Voodoo ritual and ceremony. Which - Zora did a lot of anthropological work in the South and the Caribbean. And then the third one, which is coming up July 19th, we are doing it around the African-American work song tradition, and the railroads, and all these different ways that work and song came together for survival.
And what's really interesting about the way we're doing this is… Like, in building new musicals - and I know you two both know - a lot of it is hunkering down and kind of being away from the public. This is a wild and yet to be determined if it's insane choice, to very vulnerably allow people into our process. And finding the boundaries around it. So it's a huge science experiment. But I've been in enough building of original shows to know that I want to explore doing this in a different way.
Hayley: Yeah. I love that you're doing this because a big question we've had on the podcast before is, like, what would happen if we brought people into the process earlier in new works development? So it's really cool to know that you're experimenting with this format. Please report back on your findings!
Amy: Yeah, we wanna hear all about it.
Tanya: I will. And I feel like I can even report back a little now…
Hayley: Yeah, please!
Tanya: …because, I mean, we're kind of coming to the end of three. What I've learned after two is it's incredibly vulnerable, but it requires me particularly being really rooted in the vision, but also being open to feedback. And so the word that I'm using is, like, I love the word consideration. Because it's like, I take into consideration everything that comes. And there's a lot of beauty that comes, there's also some things that you're like, “Thank you, but not that.”
And also to consider… Like, to me, to consider means care. And so it's like - it takes a lot more energy. The beauty of having this residency at The Shed is we have line producers and we have a team and a beautiful space. So that allows for it to be held in a certain way. When I first started at the shed, I was like, “This project needs a place to sleep.” Like, it needs an institution. And I know also with building Broadway shows and building theatre, you don't usually get a home until you get a theatre. And I think I'm realizing in order to do the work like this, you need a home before that theatre home. Yeah. And so that's another reflection that I'm finding, is to have the care and the support and the home base before the theatre home.
Hayley: Wow. Well, yeah, because you have then the space to collaborate before it’s too late to make decisions, you know?
Tanya: That’s it, exactly.
Hayley: You can really get in a room together. I definitely, as a creative, am often like,”Oh, it's so hard to get all the people in the rooms together with the adequate time that you would want. You know, all the designers and all the brains and hearts that you want to contribute to the thing. What a beautiful discovery and opportunity. I love that.
Tanya: Thank you. Yeah.
Hayley: I’m curious about what your creative mission is as an artist and how it ties all of the different work that you do together with your many hats.
Tanya: I’m in the process of creating a manifesto of sorts for the Zora Project, which - to me, I feel like the Zora Project is like an umbrella for who I am as an artist. And I feel like Zora would say to me, like, “I am happy to be your inspiration and your muse and… You know, but also don't hide behind me. You know, like, you are you. And my work was my work, and you're continuing it forward.”
So I think that would be the beginning of it, is I'm learning how to be an artist through this work of Zora and this research. I mean, she's left so much. Because she was a cultural anthropologist, all of her things are documented. I mean, recordings of her speaking, recordings of her singing, of her having conversations, all of the writings, her letters to her friends, to her agent. I really have a full picture of how she was in the world. And I wanna move the way she moved. I wanna be able to move anywhere between the South and coming to the North and Broadway and working in community and facilitating embodiment workshops and then coming back and sitting behind a director's chair…
Like, I wanna be able to move and flow and stay at the center of myself, no matter where I am. And that's what Zora was able to do. And as a Black woman a hundred years ago, the need to code switch for survival was so real. I still feel it being real. Like, my body feels like it's real even now, but I know the privilege that I have to stay in the center of myself, no matter how uncomfortable that might be. So I think that is my mission. It's always been to stay in the center of myself, no matter what hat I'm wearing, what role I'm playing, and stay true to who I am.
And I also believe that Zora, her art was her life. So to me, I always say: My show is the icing and my life is the art. And isn't it so cool that the product of my life are these beautiful things. But the beautiful things aren't why I'm doing this. I'm doing this to have a full life.
Amy: That's beautiful.
Hayley: Yeah, that's really moving to hear you speak on that. Like, I'm feeling emotional here.
Amy: Yeah. And I love the mission of being in yourself, being true to yourself. What I love about it is that it's not dependent on anyone else. Like, it's a thing you can make it happen for yourself, and at the same time, it makes the communities around you so beautiful by being yourself and sharing everything you have to share. That's really exciting.
Tanya: Thank you. And I will just say that it's not easy. To be in the center of myself also means to be in the center of my anxiety, like, in the center of all of it. And to hold it and own it as mine, and take responsibility for it. So that is a huge part, and I think requires resilience and support and - yeah, community around you.
Amy: Totally. Hmm.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Well, Tanya, I wanna ask you about womanhood. I'd love to ask you about how womanhood fits into your identity and works with other parts of your identity and how all of that kind of swirls together around your art.
Tanya: Hmm, great. Womanhood is a huge piece. I have a very dear friend who now since has passed, Monty. He's an astrologer and a brilliant psychotherapist, and he does all these amazing things. And he would say to me when he looked at my chart, like, “Whoa, you got a lot of feminine energy. Like, there’s a a lot of the feminine going on with you.”
So for me, it shows up big-time in how I mother, who I am as a mother to my children. But I really have seen mothering as I'm healing and kind of… I mean, my mother is an amazing woman and raised all of me and my siblings amazingly well. And as I re-parent and learn about the parts of myself that I need to mother again, I'm realizing that mothering is a beautiful thing that I do for my children, but also for my husband, for my friends. So I think mother is a really big piece of that identity and womanhood.
And since I've been working with Zora and since I've been working on Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil and more of the Southern kind of Hoodoo culture and African ways of thinking and being, again, is the masculine is showing up real present in my life. And I find that as a beautiful counterpart to the womanhood, actually very necessary. And so like, how I would have seen feminism before is now about finding that balance within myself. And also, I'm collaborating with a lot more men now. And like, I just have a lot of men in my world that are supporting me as a woman for who I am. And that's a really beautiful thing too.
Amy: That is beautiful.
Hayley: Tanya, if you could make one change to the theatre industry - or a few. Or a few! We're not gonna limit you…
Tanya: I was like, whoo!
Hayley: What would it be or what would they be?
Tanya: It definitely would be around… And I think I'm changing it, for myself, and I just hope now it'll change for others - is around, again, being a mother and support for mothers and… like a contract. I just looked at a contract yesterday that was like, “You will have one single occupancy room.” You know? And I'm just like, you didn't even ask, “Are you a mother? Do you have children? Do you need space for your children?” Like, that should be a social justice, equitable practice 101. So to me, that absolutely has to change.
I also feel like being a part of SDC, the Stage Directors and Choreographers union, is… Like, the healthcare for women and mothers, it's just, it's ridiculous. Yeah, there's some basic care. And the thing is, I mean, most directors and choreographers up until recently were men and are men. And so it's reflected in how the union is and how it's represented. So I think these are big changes. I have other things on the stage, like, in terms of process and stage. But in terms of just getting to the stage, getting to the contract, getting to the work is support for mothers, for families, for parents, in all the ways that allow us to show up and do our job well.
And I will say, just to give a plug to Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, that was my first negotiating point and it was met. And I have to say I did some of my best work ever, because my family was 100% taken care of and welcome in the theatre.
Amy: That's great. For me, it's been really interesting too, because my husband Keith is usually the one navigating those contract negotiations and making sure that there's space for me and for our daughter, like, in his world. And those conversations are tricky, and some places have more resources to support that than others. And like him going through those negotiations as a white dude with all the privilege in the world, like, I can only imagine that for a mother, for a Black woman, like that there's so much more to that.
Tanya: Yeah. I think we have to all lead with it. Even in my bio, I lead with, like, mother and partner. It’s like, I try to lead with it so that there's no question where my priorities lie, you know?
Amy: Yeah, the visibility of it. I feel like historically, people in theatre, if they've had families, have just not talked about having families and the responsibility of that. So yeah, making it visible. I feel strongly about that too.
Tanya: You downplay it.
Amy: It's like a liability. Yeah.
Tanya: It is, yeah, but I think it's changing. It is changing, the conversations are happening. But as more progress happens in all different, you know, walks and spectrums, I feel like the child thing, the parenthood thing always is like, “Oh, let's talk about that later.” Like, you know, that's the most expensive change, I think.
Hayley: I’m curious about the logistics. How do you do it, Tanya? Like, how do you manage having a family and having this type of a career?
Tanya: I say that I was very naive, and I'm kind of happy that I was. I said to my husband… So my husband also is in theatre, he is a percussionist. We met on said Lion King tour. So he still does eight shows a week. He plays for MJ on Broadway, and he's been doing that from the beginning of the run. And um, even though musicians have more flexibility with their time, 'cause they can sub out but it's still is a lot, right? And we've both been two artists in this game from the beginning.
And when we both moved back to New York from tour, I was like, “Once I've gotten three Broadway shows, then we can talk about having kids.” And I did three Broadway shows in the span of, like, a year and a half. And I was like, he was like, “Well, there we go!”
So I was in my late twenties when I got pregnant with my first daughter. And I was doing associate work at the same time. So I was like, okay, then I'll do that. I'll have the babies and I'll do associate work, but I realized I still really wanted to perform. So I did that with my daughter for a while, uh, until I got so burnt out and realized two 8-show-a-week parents, at least for us, just was not gonna work. And I didn't like not being at home and basically paying a nanny all of my… I did the math and was like, I basically take home grocery money every week from my Broadway salary.
Hayley: That’s crazy! And that’s on a Broadway salary.
Amy: That’s the piece of it that is not talked about nearly enough. Yeah.
Tanya: That’s on a Broadway salary. I was like, I'm taking home, like, $300. We have childcare for 9–5 working parents, but like, there's no governmental childcare for parents who work at night. And like, where are those conversations of those workers who work at night? And so yeah, that's completely out of pocket when you work in the evenings. And so yeah, we logistically decided and I decided I was ready to leave.
I remember going to Career Transitions for Dancers at the Actors Fund, and I literally remember making a list being like, “I can cook, kind of…” Like, trying to figure out what can I do other than be a performer or be a dancer. And she was like, “Dancers could run the world with our work ethic.” And I said to her, “Well, I've never dreamed of, really, I've never dreamed of winning a Tony or even being the star of a Broadway show.” Like again, I tripped and fell, like, I'm just having to be here and be in this community. And she looked at me and said, “It's because it's not big enough for you.”
And that… When I say shattered the glass ceiling… It just opened my eyes to all different types of possibilities of where my artistry could go and what I could do, and that I didn't have to stay in a box. And so that allowed me to be really scrappy in a great way. Like, you know, I was teaching yoga…
I just feel like the answer to your question, Hayley, is 1) there's no real answer to how we do it. I think, uh, trust. I think we are talented and so we will find things to do. I don't know if luck is a bit of it too, but I think if you make the choice, you find a way, you know? And I don't think I would raise my kids anywhere else right now. I love raising kids in New York City. They do make me a better artist. My friend Megan Sikora told me that once you have kids, you're gonna watch your artistry just explode. And that is definitely true. And yeah, it's crazy too. It's just a crazy choice. But I think we are one of those families and couples in the industry where people say, “Oh, they can do it, so we can do it too.” And we're happy to be those people. Um, yeah.
Hayley: That's great.
Amy: That's awesome. I wanna underline what you said, 'cause I feel like so many people in the theatre industry have this very narrow view of, like, the ultimate success is Broadway. And like, if I can reach that, then I've made it. And I love that you got to Broadway and were like, “This isn't big enough for me.” Like, yes! Because our artistry, like, our artistry cannot possibly be confined to this one very specific, very corporate way of making art. Like, that's crazy!
Tanya: Exactly! So my really, really dear friend, Lisa Guida, who is like a Broadway legend, she's done, like, 17 Broadway shows or something crazy like that. Now she's a rock star therapist for artists. She's amazing! Raising a family in the city. And I did my Broadway debut with her, and I'll never forget… The curtain came down, and it was Finian’s Rainbow. And I turned to her and I went, “That was it? This is what everybody…?” She was like, “Yeah, girl.” And she said, “When you said that, I knew, like, you were gonna be my friend.”
And it's not to downplay it. To me, the community is everything. Like, I still can go into a theatre 20 years later, and the ushers, like, rip up my ticket and give me a better seat, and they're like, “How are the kids?” Like, you know what I mean? It's just, it's a community that will always be strong and tight. Um, but yeah, it's not, it never was the picture of everything to me. But I also understand having to hold something in order to even get to a place of the 2% of Equity who actually makes a living as a working artist. Like, it's just crazy.
Amy: It is, it's wild.
Hayley: I wanna ask you, Tanya, about balance, because you talked about art as like a way of life for you, and I'm just curious about: How do you think about balancing your creative work with the rest of your life and folding in the other things that you need to be a human being?.
Tanya: Oh my gosh, so much grace. Like, really understanding that word. Like, I will say today - and Amy knows this 'cause I told her this morning at our workout class - I put on The Magic School Bus for my 6-year-old, and I'm pretty sure she's still in her pajamas watching it right now as we're on this podcast, okay? Like, let's just be real.
Amy: It’s educational content, you know?
Hayley: Listen, we do what we have to do. Okay? Women make it work.
Tanya: So this is the balance today. This is what balance looks like today.
Hayley: Yeah, totally.
Tanya: Mom is not sacrificing her workout. Like, we're gonna figure it out. So balance looks like giving myself a lot of grace, and I think it also is a certain type of discipline that's needed. I mean, a lot of people don't like the word discipline, but as a dancer, I actually really find it helpful.
And so finding the routines, my kids are in school now, so that gives us structure naturally. But even now for the summers, they're home, and they're not in camp. And so yeah, I have to, like, work a Google Calendar like it's my job. Learning basic administrative skills as an artist are very important and very helpful. And I know it's boring, but it's true.
And then I think with my husband, we carve out two hours a week, just the two of us, to like, go on a walk or do something together. Yeah. It's just making the time as best that we can. But a lot of it is trial and error. I honestly don't know. But yeah, I'm a very structured, disciplined person, and I think that lends to me being able to have this lifestyle. I've also been on unemployment a lot of times, and so I know how to spend money and then conserve, like, knowing how to do those types of things is really necessary. Yeah.
Hayley: Love it. I think speaking on that, too, is helpful. Because I know I certainly forget that that's something that's a part of being an artist and… You know, just, it is what it is.
Tanya: It is what it is.
Hayley: Yeah, for sure. Tanya, I wanna ask you one last question, which is: What are you most proud of in your life and in your work so far?
Tanya: Hmm, that's a good one. It's interesting. I woke up and I've had a lot of anxiety in my body today. And what I'm really proud of is my ability to find the self-care practices that work for me to be able to make it through a day. I'm so proud of myself for that. I mean, I have a practice that, when I feel stuck, I can go to, and that I do every day. I can hold my emotions in my body and still live. And especially with what's going on today in the world and the country and everything, I think that's really big. And anyone and everyone needs to give themselves a real, like, pat on the back just to be able to feel like, “Wow, I have anxiety and I can still show up for myself, for my family.” So yeah, I'm proud of that
Hayley: That's worthy of so much celebration.
Amy: Yeah, that's a superpower. Absolutely, Tanya.
Hayley: Absolutely.
Tanya: Yeah. And then I think for my work, I'm proud of the type of leader that I'm stepping into and learning how to be. How to lead a space, lead a room. So Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil was my first kind of foray…
Okay. Lion King was like a trip and fall, and I feel like Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil was a little bit of a trip and fall. Not that I wasn't prepared for it, but I was nowhere near theatre during the pandemic. I was teaching yoga, I was doing embodiment facilitation work with nonprofits, I was consulting with Bloomberg Philanthropies on their creative team. Like, I was doing all these other things. And then Broadway comes, Rob Ashford comes knocking: “Remember me? Do you wanna choreograph a Broadway show?” ??
And that took… Like, imposter syndrome and the ego, but the part of the ego that - really, not to like villainize it - that is there to protect you from, like, bears and from dying - was like, “Girl, you're gonna die if you do this. Like, you are not…” And I was able to somehow push through it and show up and say yes, and I'm so happy I did. Because theatre is really my home, and there's nothing like a room of theatre folks creating something together. The laughter, the joy, the hardship, the working through negotiating, like, no one else does it better than we do.
So, I'm just so proud that I was able to push through that and to come back to theatre and to be back now, which I feel like is on my terms. And just to go back to that word code switching, which I brought up at the beginning with Zora - like, my fear was that I was gonna code switch back to being a real people pleaser or maybe some of the survival tactics I had in the industry when I was younger. And when I came back, I realized, “Oh, I really have changed.” And I couldn't go back even if I tried. I am who I am now. I'm bringing what I've learned in the world as a mother, as a woman, as a partner, um, as a facilitator in all these different ways. And I'm just grateful to bring that to the theatre now, as it's continuing to shift and change.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: That's beautiful, yeah.
Hayley: Tanya, thank you so much for doing this interview and taking time out of your day to spend with us and share your wisdom. We're so grateful to have had you here. Could you share with our listeners where they can find you on the internet if they wanna keep up with your work?
Tanya: Yeah. And also, I just wanna say thank you for having me. Any moment of being able to have some self-reflection and mirroring back is just such a gift. So it's a gift to be here. Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram @sohumanity. So Humanity is also the umbrella of work beyond just theatre, of all my facilitation work as well. Then you can also follow - which I would love for you to follow, 'cause it's new - @thezoraprojectnyc on Instagram. That's the best way to find me. I'm not on all the other things. One spot, one way.
Hayley: Perfect.
Amy: Yeah, that's all you need.
Hayley: Keep it simple.
Amy: We're so excited about The Zora Project, and we will absolutely follow along and be really excited to see updates about that.
Hayley: Yes, absolutely.
Tanya: Amazing.
Amy: Thank you so much, Tanya. It's such a pleasure to spend time with you.
Tanya: Thank you for having me. You too.
Hayley: This was such a delight. Thank you.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Wow, that was so much fun.
Hayley: Tanya has got wisdom upon wisdom upon wisdom.
Amy: I knew you were gonna love her! Yay.
Hayley: I love her. You were right. You were right. She's awesome.
Amy: Yeah, I just love how she does life. I love how she does being a human in the world. It's very aspirational for me. It's awesome.
Hayley: Totally, yeah. So what are your big takeaways?
Amy: I love the idea of found ancestors.
Hayley: Yeah! Oh my god, so cool.
Amy: I’m thinking on that. I'm gonna be coming back to that. Like, yeah, we can choose our family, and we can also choose our ancestors, and the wisdom and the shoulders that we wanna stand on. That's really exciting to me.
I also was really touched by the idea of getting to Broadway and being like, “Nope, this isn't big enough.” Because I do feel like - and I'm certainly guilty of this - that we in the theatre industry can be so laser focused on, like, “I gotta get my show to Broadway. I've gotta get to Broadway.” And there is no one path. And we've talked about that so much in this project. There is no one path. And yes, we're both big idea, big vision girlies, and Broadway is not the end all, be all.
And what's really special, I think, is to be able to find something - and it sounds like Tanya's found this in the Zora Project… Susan Blackwell and Laura Camien once said to me, “finding a vessel that's big enough to hold all of your artistry, all of who you are.” And I see that reflected in Tanya and how she speaks about her work, and that's really exciting to me. So those are my big takeaways. What are your big takeaways, Hayley?
Hayley: Yeah, those are beautiful. I wanna underline both of the things you just said. I think… definitely big takeaways for me too. I think the one that is the biggest takeaway for me is the resilience and difficulty that comes with standing in who you truly are, but also, like, the positives that come with that. There is no more radical and creative version of yourself than the one that is truly you. And it is very hard to do that. And also, look at what kinds of things you can create and what kind of bounty you can have when you live your life that way. And the bravery that that takes.
And so, I think the takeaway for me is I definitely aspire to be that way, and I want to continue to find and facilitate opportunities for me to cultivate that practice in my life and stay disciplined about it, to use a word that Tanya used. 'Cause I think it's really important.
When she was talking about the former, like, people-pleasing tendencies and stuff like that, I know that for me, that's something I fall into. And I have an inner conflict between the boundaries and the care that I need to take for myself and what I feel that others expect of me, and the real hard evidence of success and other kinds of rewards I've been given for being a people pleaser. I am often kind of battling between this core of who I am and who I feel I need to be for other people. And hearing her talk about it, I really related to it, and it just reinvigorated my desire to stay on track with my values and who I am. So it’s a more personal one, but…
Amy: Absolutely. I think this was a really valuable interview. I'm really glad we were able to speak with Tanya.
Hayley: Well, Amy, I wanna ask you before we run, who's your Trailblazer of the Week this week?
Amy: My Trailblazer of the Week this week is Alex Elle, who is a wellness and meditation person. I happened upon one of her meditations on my Insight Timer app during the pandemic, and it really spoke to me, I found it very helpful. And she's a very, very wise soul whose spiritual guidance I really appreciate in my life.
In the last couple of weeks, I've been getting back into a meditation practice that I had kind of busied myself out for a minute there. And it's been really like a homecoming kind of thing for me, and it's been really cool to see, like, oh yeah! When I take care of myself and do the self-care things, here are the things that shift in my life and that become possible when I'm taking care of myself the way that I aspire to be. So, I've been leaning a lot on Alex Elle's work in all of this. And I've been really appreciating the lessons that she has to share with me and with the world.
Who's your Trailblazer of the Week, Hayley?
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week is gonna be Katie Spelman. Katie is the creator of the Agnes Index on Instagram. .
Amy: We love the Agnes Index!
Hayley: Yeah! So go take a follow or a gander at the Instagram page.
Amy: Or a goose!
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: …'cause it's about women.
(laughter)
Hayley: I love it. So good. Go take a look.
Amy: So silly.
Hayley: The Agnes Index publishes, via Katie's own research, the stats of how many women and gender-expansive and male creatives are on every Broadway show team for a season. And, you know, we take steps forward and then we take steps back. And so I think that having Katie's work and the work of the Agnes Index is really important, just to remind us where we are and to not get complacent with our representation, as far as gender goes on shows. Especially on Broadway, but this applies to regional as well. And this is work that she's doing, as far as I'm aware, on her own. And so, I just really appreciate her work.
She's also a brilliant director and choreographer and is working on tons of new projects. So if you aren't familiar with Katie's work, go check her out. I'm really excited to get to work with her on a project coming up soon. She's very, very cool. So yeah, Katie's my Trailblazer of the Week.
Amy: Fabulous! Way to go, Katie. Yeah, I just used stats from the Agnes Index in a submission literally yesterday.
Hayley: Fab, love it.
Amy: So thank you, Katie, for your work. Yes.
Hayley: Thank you for your work.
Amy: Yes,
Hayley: So fantastic.
Amy: Amazing.
Hayley: Well, Amy, I wanna hype you up right now, because I feel like you're really centered in yourself today. Like, I think that that work that you're doing with your meditation, something's shifting. I know you were going through, like, a really stressful time, and I could see that there was a lot weighing on your shoulders. And the person who is showing up today is a person who I know you to to be, and I'm really proud of you. And you're just like really doing the work of - thematically, what we were just talking about, of showing up in the truest form of yourself and in your sunshine-y, positive, jazzed girly that I love so much. So I love all of you, but it's really, really nice to see… You seem to be yourself right now, and that's really exciting for me to see that.
Amy: Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. Well, I wanna hype you up, Hayley, 'cause I know you are going through it, and I really appreciate you showing up here, even though you're sick. And just being open to the conversation and to meeting this person. I see that you and Tanya have a lot of shared aesthetic, shared values, and… You know, I'm a connector of people, I like to bring people together, and you know that I'm always like, “Oh, Hayley, you're really gonna like this person.” And so, even though you weren't feeling your best, I think it's wonderful that you were able to show up and connect with me, with Tanya, and make this beautiful conversation happen. So thank you.
Hayley: I love you, listeners. I'm here. I'm here. I'm gonna show up if I can, I’m trying my best here. Thank you.
Amy: Yeah! Well, and now, listeners, it is Summer Girl Hour. Please go enjoy your vacation.
Hayley: Go drink a cold beverage for us.
Amy: Enjoy time with your family. Drink a cold beverage, stay hydrated, wear sunscreen, take care of yourselves.
Hayley: Go to the beach.
Amy: Have a super fun summer adventure today. I invite you to do that.
Hayley: Yeah, I invite you to go to the beach. Because I've gone to the beach a few times, and looking at the water, listeners… Revitalizing, beautiful people. Like, just go stare at some water.
Amy: Absolutely.
Hayley: Love you. See you next time. Bye!
Amy: Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
